Young and Free?

Panellist %
Innes Willox 24
Danielle Wood 21
Sophie Johnston 19
Tim Fung 19
Yael Stone 17

HAMISH MACDONALD

Young Australians are paying a heavy price for this shutdown. They’re losing their jobs, sacrificing their freedoms, and staring at decades of debt, and they’ve done this to help keep older Australians safe and alive during the pandemic. So, who pays for it all? Who now makes the sacrifice? Australia must make some big decisions about what to do next, and young people are tonight making their voices heard.

Our panel is standing by to hear from you, wherever you are across the country tonight. You’ve got lots of questions, so let’s get you some answers. Welcome to Q+A.

Hi there. Welcome to the program. Joining me tonight – Youth Commissioner Sophie Johnston, who worries about the impact this crisis is having on her generation, industry leader Innes Willox, who represents more than 60,000 Australian businesses, you may know her from Orange Is The New Black, actor and climate advocate Yael Stone, economist Danielle Wood, who says this is the moment for the next big set of reforms, and Tim Fung, CEO of online marketplace Airtasker – he believes this crisis will define the lives of Australians under 30.

Remember, you can stream us on iview, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter and the ‘Gram – #QandA is the hashtag. Please do play nicely. And now our first question tonight, it’s from Alice Gill in Woonona, New South Wales.

ALICE GILL, WOONONA, NSW

I’m a second-year university student, and, because of the pandemic, I’ve moved back to my family home in Wollongong from Canberra. I’ve lost my job and I’m not eligible for the JobKeeper payment, so I don’t have an income at the moment. Can we, as young people, be hopeful about our future in the face of such growing uncertainty, or is it naive of us to think this way? Are there any lessons from the Great Depression and the recession of the early 1990s that we can learn from and apply to what’s currently happening, or are we heading into completely uncharted territory?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Danielle Wood.

DANIELLE WOOD, ECONOMIST, GRATTAN INSTITUTE

Look, I think, sadly, that would be a fairly common experience in this COVID crisis. We know that young people have borne the costs particularly highly. You know, one-third of young people are now unemployed or underemployed as a result of this crisis. But it’s really important to... to look forward, so I think that question of, you know, looking for lessons is a good one. One thing we do know is it’s really important to get people back to work as quickly as possible. The longer people remain out of work, the greater the chance that they end up with long-term impacts on their employment prospects and wages. So, the government really needs to be looking about trying to get the economy moving again, stimulus programs to create jobs. We need to be looking at education and training opportunities for young people. So, there are a whole lot of things we know that can work to get young people back into the employment market and make sure that these short-term effects don’t become permanent ones.

HAMISH MACDONALD

And can you place this in the context of some of those historic moments that were referred to there? The official unemployment rate peaked at 32% during the Great Depression. According to the official numbers, we’re nowhere near that at this point.

DANIELLE WOOD

Certainly, the official employment rate is sitting at... unemployment rate is sitting at 6.2%, but we know that the number of people that have lost their jobs is substantially higher than that. So, for example, there are a lot of people – six million people – on the JobKeeper program. A lot of them have been stood down. So, they’re not efficiently working, but they don’t get captured in those official statistics.

Where this crisis really stands out historically is in the swiftness of that rise. We lost 600,000 jobs in a month, a 10% decline in hours in a single month. You know, if we look back to the ‘80s or ‘90s, it took 18 months to... to have that sort of hit to employment markets. So, this, you know, is extraordinary in the swiftness in which it’s hit.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I suppose it’s worth noting Alan Kohler says that if all those people on support payments right now were counted as unemployed, the unemployment rate would be 58%. Sophie, how hard has this hit your generation?

SOPHIE JOHNSTON, NATIONAL YOUTH COMMISSIONER

Look, I think what Danielle said is right – we do need to look forward, but we also need to learn from the mistakes of the past. And what Alice has really highlighted, and what I know a lot of young people are experiencing – you know, this isn’t just happening to one people, or a cluster of people, this is happening all across the country.

And what that’s really highlighted is the failure of casualisation across the workforce, particularly for young people. We have one of the highest rates of casualisation in the developed world. For young people, that’s been particularly difficult. We’re predominantly employed in industries like retail, like cafes and bars and restaurants – all those industries that have been really, really difficultly hit for young people. And that’s what we’re seeing. This is the outcome of...of that.

Another important thing that I will add is, about 500,000 young people who were employed as casuals for less than 12 months have been excluded from the JobKeeper payment. So, the system isn’t working. We need to learn from the mistakes of the past, and we need to forge a future where young people do have opportunities, and this doesn’t happen again.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Innes Willox, do you accept that young people have been disproportionately hit by the economic impact of this shutdown?

INNES WILLOX, CEO, AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRY GROUP

Look, Hamish, I think undoubtedly young people have been hit very hard by this, and that’s the nature of how this has hit us. As Danielle said, the brutality of this has been enormous. I mean, to lose the number of jobs we did in a month, to see so many people go onto JobKeeper, to see so many people have reduced hours or be stood down in a month is just phenomenal. And every piece of data will tell you that this has been the swiftest, deepest economic decline probably in history.

You know, the Bank of England says this is the deepest recession in 300 years, so that gives you the context. You know, and the Great Depression lasted from 1929 to 1940 before the war kicked in – and unemployment was at its deepest in 1937. So, it was a long, slow burn, that one. This has been swift and brutal. And young people have...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But...

INNES WILLOX

Young people have been at the brunt of it because of the way that it’s impacted and the way it’s unfolded with sort of those public-facing jobs, unfortunately, going first. And that’s where a lot of young people work, it’s where they get their start in their careers. So, yes, they have been hit.

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

Innes, young people have been affected because the structures in place were failing. You must acknowledge that?

INNES WILLOX

The “structures”, did you say?

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

We wouldn’t be in this situation if we didn’t have mass casualisation of the workforce.

INNES WILLOX

Well, your figures are wrong, but we won’t get into that.

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

I didn’t say any figures.

INNES WILLOX

We have 20% of the workforce is employed casually. It’s been the same since 1998. So, there’s been no structural shift in recent times. This is an impact of a health pandemic, and that has created an economic situation, such as it has. And I’m not disputing for a minute that young people have been very hard hit. I’ve got five young people who live in my house aged between 18 and 30. Three of them are on JobKeeper. I know exactly the impact this is having. So, it’s... But to Alex’s question, Hamish, I think... You know, I lived through the 1991 recession trying to buy a house with interest rates at 18%. It was tough, and it’ll be tough now. But we will... And this has to be a policy-led recovery that we have here. We don’t have much option about that but to make it be a policy-led recovery. But there will be better times ahead. It’s hard to see now...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Can I just pull us up, though...?

INNES WILLOX

..but we have to... we have to keep the hope, basically.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I think it’s just worth clarifying, though, this point on which you and Sophie don’t agree – and this is around the casualisation of the workforce. There’s a difference, isn’t there, between the casualisation and the insecurity of work, and the union movement talks about insecure work in a broad... it’s a broader description than just those that are casually employed.

TIM FUNG, CEO, AIRTASKER

Hamish, I’d like to jump in there, if I could, on the point that Sophie was making around casualisation. So, I think, you know, in the state that we’re in now, and there’s no doubt that, you know, COVID’s had this massive impact... You know, Grattan Institute’s saying about 12% unemployment, there’s millions of people looking for work now. I think we’ve really got to be focused on the creation of jobs, and I think when you look at it in a very traditional lens where there was either permanent full-time jobs at one, or no jobs at zero, I think that, you know, it was a very scary place, and, you know, casualisation was a relevant term to be using. But in the new type of work, people are looking for flexible work. And so there’s all this available work between zero – no job – and one – which is a job. And I’ll give you a good example of this. One of our...

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

There’s a difference between... There’s a difference between insecure work and flexible work. I just want to make that really clear.

TIM FUNG

For sure.

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

People want safe and secure jobs. They might be flexible in nature, but they want safe and secure jobs.

TIM FUNG

Well, I think what’s important is that we don’t make false promises. So, you know, one of our taskers on our platform, a lady named Tanya, she was working for Qantas in a permanent and full-time job. And that might be perceived as something that’s very secure, but, actually, when the lay-offs and the furloughs happened, she was stood down immediately, and actually it was platforms like Airtasker were... that were actually able to, you know, ease her out of that full-time work environment, and we’ll be able to help her ease back into full-time work over time. And in the meantime, she’s able to invest into her skills, which I think is really important for young people. And in her case, actually, even earn enough money to be able to invest into equipment and tooling to be able to take her to the next stage of the economy.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. That leads us to our next question. It’s from Natasha Brock from Brunswick in Victoria. Natasha, you’re with us live tonight. You’re in the final year of university. Tell us what your situation is right now.

NATASHA BROCK, BRUNSWICK, VICTORIA

Um...so, yeah, I’m currently in my final year of my media degree at RMIT, and I’ve lost a couple of opportunities. So, yeah, my question for the panel is, you know, with so much job insecurity, with 600,000 Australians reported now out of work over the last month, how am I, like, recent graduates, future graduates, expected to break into industries with little to no employment available? And, like, we’re competing with people who have lost their jobs and are looking to get back into work. So, how can we, with no experience, get positions that these same people are going for?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Yael?

YAEL STONE, ACTOR

We’ve seen this kind of comparison to emerging from the Great Depression. Is there a question around government stepping in in a kind of Rooseveltian way and saying, “OK, we need to create public work, we need to make jobs for young people who are emerging”? And from what I can see, there is actually a huge opportunity as we transition from a fossil-fuels economy towards a renewables economy. And that does seem to be the way that we’re heading.

And it would seem that government investment in putting young workers to fuel that new economy in training and education – particularly with people with media skills – there’s all kinds of areas where people can support that transition to a new, safe, green economy.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Danielle Wood, this is a question about people with little to no experience breaking into a market where there’s already not enough work for the people that do have experience. How do you answer Natasha’s question?

DANIELLE WOOD

I would say it’s incredibly tough, Natasha. You know, even before the COVID crisis hit, what we know is that it was taking university graduates longer to find that first permanent role. Often, they were cobbling together casual work or part-time work to get some experience before they landed a role in their particular sector. So, there is no easy answer.

We certainly do think there is a role for government to step in in terms of stimulus and programs, in particular, that create jobs. So, there, we’re looking at things like infrastructure projects. The Andrews government today had an announcement around building social housing, building schools, road maintenance – all of those are great stimulus projects. I think they’re scoped to do more in the sort of social services space to address needs that have emerged during the COVID crisis – things like mental health services or tutoring to catch up disadvantaged students.

And what I would say to young people that may not be as far down the path as Natasha that are thinking about, you know, how they might skill up – there are a number of areas where skills are incredibly in-demand – so, things like health services, mental health, aged care, a lot of trades. A lot of roles actually are getting filled by skilled migrants. They’re not going to be coming over the next year or two. I expect, you know, we’re going to see a big fall in migration. So, we actually need to build a pipeline of young people moving into those sectors. So, certainly look around. There are a lot of areas where there are jobs for people with those skill sets.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Tim Fung?

TIM FUNG

I think it’s important for young people to be, you know, focusing on really building up their greatest asset, which is their skill base. And I think where the government can actually step in is in two ways. One is around investing into things like research-and-development grants to help technology companies. I think that’s a huge area. I think also investing into education for people, for young people, moving into the workforce. And I think, yeah, overarchingly, I think young people just really need to invest into this number-one asset that they have, which is their skills.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Natasha, does any of this give you hope or optimism?

NATASHA BROCK

I think it’s interesting that they talk a lot about the government providing assistance when, right now, like, all my friends, all my uni mates, all we think about is, you know, there used to be this very stepping-stone way of getting to things, like you build experience, you do these internships. Like, it builds networks and opportunities. But that seems very paused or, like, it’s almost obsolete now. So, I feel like government answers are always great, but, right now, all we can think about is, “What are we going to do next? Like, what’s literally next?” if that makes sense.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Innes Willox, can you give a simple answer to this young person about how they might be able to break into the jobs market, the secure jobs market?

INNES WILLOX

There’s no simple answer, Hamish. I wish I could give one. But out of this will come different jobs, a different sort of economy, a new normal. We’re sort of in the first phase of the worst of it at the moment. And we will emerge from it, and the economy will change shape and opportunities will emerge, and it’s about having skills that are transferrable and portable. I think Natasha herself talked about experiences not just in the job market, but beyond that. These are the things that...

HAMISH MACDONALD

It sounds like a lot of... It sounds like a lot of these responses, though...

INNES WILLOX

It’s not easy, Hamish. I wish I could say it was easy.

HAMISH MACDONALD

It does sound, though, if I’m being honest, that a lot of you are saying, “Actually, she might need to think about a different career to the one that she’s just done a university degree.” And is that what it sounds like to you, Natasha?

NATASHA BROCK

Yep. Yeah, definitely. Like, they’re talking a lot about start-ups and stuff. Like, that’s not what I’m studying. That’s not what half of the population is studying. Do you know what I mean?

YAEL STONE

To be fair, I think that there are... What I was trying to express – and apologies if I didn’t do it correctly – but I think there are enormous amounts of opportunities for skilled communicators such as yourself, people who’ve trained in that area, in terms of transitioning this economy, because going back to business as usual is not going to work. It’s not going to work for our environment, and it’s not going to work for our labour force either.

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

Can I just jump in? ‘Cause I feel like we’ve missed the point, which is that we’re pushing all of the onus onto young people, but we’re not actually listening to what they’re saying. This was a problem before coronavirus. There were so many young people who were going through university and coming out the other side and going into jobs that had nothing to do with what they’d studied. They weren’t there. There was such a lack of investment in education, particularly in the TAFE and the VET sector. There was a marketisation of the university sector where students are just rushed through and not given proper, adequate support and proper, adequate skills, and properly guided into where they need to go in their career.

And you’re right – we don’t have a really linear transition from school to post-school education to a career. And part of that problem, I think, and part of the reason we haven’t been able to address that problem, is because the people in power, the people who are making decisions, aren’t listening to young people. We need people like Natasha to be on panels like this, to be putting forward visions for what we need to do because that’s when we’re going to have solutions – when we have young people at the forefront.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Natasha...

DANIELLE WOOD

Can I just jump in on that issue? Because I think, you know, there is a real disconnect with some of the areas where we have a lot of graduates coming out of university or skills training and where the employer demand is. So, I think there is actually a much greater role for government and others to be telling young people, you know, “This is where the jobs are.” If you go and graduate from a health-related degree, you have really great employment outcomes. If you graduate from media and performing arts, unfortunately, there just aren’t as many jobs available, and we see that employment outcomes are not as strong in those areas. And I think that’s information that young people should have in front of them.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I think I need to get...

INNES WILLOX

It’s broader than that, Hamish. It’s broader than that. We’ve had... I’ve been talking about this for 10 years, so it’s not new. There’s a disconnect between our education system and the workforce, and the workforce that we need to provide. And we’ve had this problem for a while – that industry, businesses right across, from healthcare right through manufacturing, right through, haven’t been taken into account, really, when the education system has been developed and our young people are going through it.

And employers have been telling us now for a very long time that there is that disconnect between what they need and want, and see that they will need in the future, and what the education system provides. And that’s why employers, more and more, are looking at experiences in a much broader sense than just simply the piece of paper. And it’s an issue that, out of this – I’m agreeing with everything that’s been said – we have to address this. It’s fundamental. It’s one of the great national challenges – to rework our education system to make it fit for purpose for young people and for employers so that we can get the pull-through that we need, so that our employers are happy with what’s being produced and our young people see the opportunities well ahead of them. And it’s a huge part of what we have to address out of this. That’s what I was talking about – this being policy-led. This is exactly one of them.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. I do just want to go back to Natasha very briefly because, watching you through some of that, I mean, you looked physically pretty distressed at being told, “Well, maybe you should have done a degree in health.”

NATASHA BROCK

Well, yeah, it’s pretty distressing. Like, you know, you’re told in school to, like, follow what you want to do. This is what I want to do. I don’t want to be a nurse.

INNES WILLOX

Which is a big mistake.

NATASHA BROCK

I don’t want to be an engineer. And that is like... Obviously I know, going into my degree, what career outcomes look like, but this pandemic has completely flipped that. You see, like... You know, there’s obviously always going to be need for healthcare workers, for all these emergency services people, but that doesn’t change the fact that I’ve just spent three years at university trying my best to do something that I want to do for the rest of my life. Like, that doesn’t change, so I don’t feel like I should be told to do a different degree because of that – because, now this has happened, there’s no job opportunities for me. That’s not fair.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Natasha, we’ll keep in touch with you and follow your story. We really appreciate your time tonight. Our next question is from Laura Muller in Sandy Point.

LAURA MULLER, SANDY POINT, NSW

I’m a fine arts student, and I work in the box office of a live performing arts venue, with no idea of when I can return back to work. I’m not covered by any wage subsidy. With 600,000 workers having lost their jobs in Australia in April alone, where can young people – young creatives, especially – draw any sense of certainty between arts venues being forced to close, the gig economy, and the casualisation of the workforce in Australia?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Tim?

TIM FUNG

So, I think, in this instance, the gig economy, or the flexible-labour economy, comes in a few different shapes and forms. I’d first want to distinguish between the different kinds of labour that exists. You’ve got very industrialised and standardised labour in things like delivery and transport, but you’ve also got open marketplaces like Airtasker where people are able to monetise the different skills that they have and do that in their local community.

First of all, I would say to Laura that it’s a... You know, it is a tough situation. I think it is tough for everybody, and there’s no denying that. And I’m really sorry to hear about your situation. One of the things that an open marketplace like Airtasker allows you to do, though, is to be able to look at your unique skills and be able to match them with the needs of other people in your local community.

So, Airtasker, actually, during this period, has actually seen some really interesting phenomenon, whereby we did initially see an impact from COVID, but we’ve actually seen, although some jobs disappeared, other jobs actually spiked and exploded on the Airtasker marketplace. So, things like online shopping delivery really grew. Remote work has grown. And we’ve even seen people being able to take jobs that were, you know, previously done traditionally in a physical way, being done remote now. And so it’s really great to see that platforms like Airtasker allow people to adapt to the situation, and I think...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But is that a realistic answer to the insecure situation that someone like this finds themselves in?

TIM FUNG

I think it’s certainly part of an answer. I don’t think there is a full answer. And as we said, it’s a very tough situation. I don’t think there is an easy answer to say, “Well, here’s what you need to do,” and it’s all going to be solved.

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

It kind of sounds like you’re going from one insecure job into another. Is that the solution here?

TIM FUNG

I wouldn’t call flexible labour insecure. I actually think that insecurity comes about because we have this idea of there’s only one – full-time jobs – or zero – no job. And that’s what creates the insecurity – the fact that you’re worried when you’re going to lose that job because it’s very hard to get back into another one when you do lose that job.

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

I’m talking about the insecurity around... And this isn’t all gig-economy providers. This is some – unfortunately, a large portion of them – where they aren’t paying their staff adequately, they aren’t covered by an enterprise agreement where they’re paid, at a bare minimum, the minimum wage, which is what all workers would expect and should be provided with.

They’re not covered by working conditions in line with the National Employment Standards. They’re not covered by workers’ compensation if they’re injured in the workplace, which is a risk when you’re doing gig jobs, when you’re going out into the public, particularly during COVID-19. And there’s no obligation, under work health and safety standards, on the employer, and that’s a huge, huge problem in the gig economy.

TIM FUNG

As I mentioned, there’s two kinds of laymen. I don’t think it makes sense to bundle everything under an umbrella of the gig economy. I actually think that there’s... You know, there’s standardised, industrialised labour...

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

I understand the workforce, yes.

TIM FUNG

..and I think that, when you’re looking at things like deliveries, where, that is, the platforms are deciding the price and the scope and who’s going to do what kind of job – that should be very much differentiated from a platform like Airtasker, which is where the community and individual person is deciding what they want to pay another person in their community. And I think what we’re seeing there is much more kindness and generosity than might be, you know, imagined...

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

But surely a worker should be paid a base minimum wage. That surely should be the foundation of a free and abundant society.

TIM FUNG

Look, I think it’s worth stepping back and actually having a look at, like, what are the principles that we all agree on? I think everyone wants to have financial confidence. I think that’s something that we really believe in at Airtasker. Everyone wants to have safety in the workplace. And we really believe that, and we’ve actually worked with unions to try and create those safe environments. And we want wellbeing for people and for them to be able to have opportunity. If I step back from that, I look at the way that flexible labour works, and I think they can absolutely be a contributor to all three of those principles for creating good work for people.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I want to bring Yael in here ‘cause this was a question about the arts, in particular. And even someone who’s made it in America, made it on Netflix and everywhere else, like you, has faced the consequences of this downturn, haven’t you?

YAEL STONE

Oh, I mean, I don’t really think bringing me into the equation is what’s important right now. I mean, sure, yes, I’ve lost all my jobs, but I’m very fortunate and I feel very lucky in my life. What I’d like to do is redirect to the questioner, I guess, and what I hear, when I hear her talking, is we’re hearing about jobs that are slipping through the cracks. So, we’ve got this wonderful support with JobKeeper, and that’s providing critical support for so many people. Unfortunately, the government has decided that that doesn’t include freelancers and short-term casual workers. And that includes most of the people that are in the arts and creative industries.

And it’s a bit of a kick in the guts because, I guess, creative workers have worked hard, they’ve worked tirelessly, um... and...the notion of the job is to tell stories, to tell stories about national character, to understand where we are in the world, to provide a scope for catharsis and healing. And for me, that’s really important. That’s a crucial element of what we do. But when the government doesn’t choose to include those people who do that job, it says, “That doesn’t matter, and we don’t care about that.” Now, alongside that, there’s also been a removal for Australian content minimums. And again, another kick in the face. It says, “We don’t even want to see you on our screens anymore.”

HAMISH MACDONALD

This is the TV networks have asked the government to relax the rules around how much local content...

YAEL STONE

Yeah.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..they have to produce.

YAEL STONE

And when we have less local content, that means we’re producing less. That means many, many more people out of work.

HAMISH MACDONALD

The government, though, when these sorts of questions are put to them, says, “Well, if you’re not eligible for the JobKeeper, you can go on JobSeeker.” There is a safety net there.

YAEL STONE

Yeah, and I think that that is not really addressing what I’m talking about, which is acknowledging the hard work of professionals who’ve trained... Not unlike our questioner before, who’ve trained in the industry, that they’ve been told, “Follow your passion. Follow your dream.” And it’s not an industry that’s easy to get into. As you well know, in the media, as well, these are long hours. A lot of what you do is for free, to break in. It’s tireless and passionate work, it’s wonderful work, but it’s hard. And I think that work and those careers need to be acknowledged by saying, “We’re job keepers – we’re not seekers.”

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Our next question tonight is from Billy Morton in Hawthorn, Victoria.

BILLY MORTON, HAWTHORN, VIC

Across the US, the UK and Australia, we overwhelmingly see older generations vote for less action on climate change, and younger generations vote for more, where younger generations will bear the brunt of the consequences. During the COVID-19 crisis, where older generations have been the most affected, younger generations have willingly sacrificed for the sake of their health and wellbeing. When will older generations take on their responsibility in taking action on climate change for the sake of future generations and our planet?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Yael?

YAEL STONE

I think that this is a question we’ve all been asking ourselves. Just for the record, I don’t count myself as a young person. I’m 35, I have a kid – I don’t think I’m young. But I’m a huge fan of young people. And about a year ago, I learnt too much about climate change, and it’s turned my life upside down, basically. And that question, about when older generations are going to come to the fore and start supporting younger people in this fight, this fight for our very existence, that’s a big question. I don’t think we’re seeing it at the moment.

I think we’re putting a lot of pressure on young people. We’re saying, “You’re the hope of the future. Look at you go. Look at you marching in the streets! How wonderful! You’ll solve everything.” It’s not right. It’s not right. Generations like mine and older generations need to come to the party, and there needs to be real sacrifice and real change because the data that we see, scientifically, says business as usual will not work.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, Danielle Wood, if that is to happen, what does it look like?

DANIELLE WOOD

Look, I think what we need is a serious policy to reduce emissions across the economy. I think what we’ve had has been kind of a litany of policies that have been put in place and pulled away, or thrown to one side. We’ve ended up with quite a piecemeal approach. So, we need an economy-wide approach to reduce emissions to help us get to those 2030 targets, and then we need a long-term plan for much more ambitious emissions reductions beyond that. You know, we have just squibbed this for the past 10, 20 years. We can no longer afford to do that, and it is time to take action.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But can I...?

YAEL STONE

And it’s not by mistake. You know, we can’t pretend that this back-and-forth and this backtracking is just by accident. This issue, which really is about basic human rights, ensuring clean air and clean water and a safe place to live, this has become politicised in a way that is criminal, in my opinion.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But if Australia couldn’t find the political will to take on this challenge before, when the economic conditions were comparatively very good, how are we going to be able to find the political direction on this when our economy is, frankly, in a much more difficult, precarious position?

YAEL STONE

There’s people all over the world arguing that the very transition that we’ve been waiting for, the opportunity has arrived, here, in this chaos, that as we reform a really damaged economy, now is the time to embrace those renewables. Now is the time to make that change.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Innes Willox?

INNES WILLOX

Well, look, Hamish, I’ve lived through 12 years of climate wars in Australia, and, you know, I want it to be resolved soon, and I think we have a very clear outcome here, and that is sort of we work towards and we transition towards a net-zero economy by 2050. That’s got to be the goal, and I think that’s a broadly accepted goal. Out of this...

HAMISH MACDONALD

When you say “broadly accepted”, is it accepted by government?

INNES WILLOX

Well, I’m not from the government, Hamish. You’d need to ask the government, but it’s pretty broadly accepted across the board in... across the business community that this is the objective that we all have to work for, and businesses are working towards that objective in their own way, often well ahead of where government policy has been at the time.

We have two issues here. We have response to COVID, and we have the transition to a new normal and a new economy. And I made a presentation last week which was just on this very subject, that these are the two big issues that we face, as an economy and as a society, is how we do make that transition. Now, we’re going to have conversations about how we do that, and that’s all going to be contested, but out of this, as I said earlier, this has to be policy-led. We have to make moves in this direction, but in a sustainable way so that our economy can get back on its feet. And part of getting back on its feet will be a movement towards renewables, a movement towards more use of gas, a reliance on old technology for a bit longer because we just don’t have the storage capacity. But we are definitely heading in that direction.

I wouldn’t...I hear what Billy was saying before, but I wouldn’t say that all old people – and I have to put myself in that category, I’m obviously the grandfather of this panel – all old people are opposed to climate change and all young people are in favour. I wouldn’t sort of put all old people in that category – a long way from it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. That brings us to our next question. It’s from Ethan Taylor in Glenelg, South Australia.

ETHAN TAYLOR, GLENELG, SA

I’m a young Aboriginal man whose mob is from the Northern Territory, and I feel that we should help everyone recover from COVID-19, regardless of their skin colour or where they live. But right now, Nev Power is pushing a gas recovery from COVID-19, and that means mining on Indigenous land without consent, the burning of fossil fuels, and the exacerbation of the climate crisis. That doesn’t seem fair to me. Do you think that there is a way that we can recover from COVID-19 by respecting Indigenous land rights and investing in renewable energy?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Innes Willox?

INNES WILLOX

I knew you’d come to me, Hamish. Look, this is going to be a balancing act as we go forward. And I hear Billy, and I don’t think there’s a resources company going to go stomping into Indigenous land without seeking approvals. It just can’t happen. And Indigenous communities will have their say... on what happens on their land or not. But the biggest question...

YAEL STONE

They might have their say, but will they be listened to? That’s the bigger question.

INNES WILLOX

Well, they have to be, and they have to be engaged, Sophie. But...

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

Well, that’s not what history shows.

INNES WILLOX

As they should be, and as they must be. But the bigger question that Billy’s referring to here is around our energy transition. How do we move from fossils to renewables? Gas still has to be part of that bridge, and part of the conversation coming out of this is part of the issue that we’ve had in the past few years has been that we haven’t had that bridge, and that’s led to massive conflicts within society and concerns for business around investment. And we...as I said, we’re on a trajectory. There’s no doubt about it. It’s how we get there, and gas is part of that.

And gas also provides enormous opportunities for the economy as a whole. But we have to do it in a transparent way, and we have to take into account the concerns of communities, communities like Billy’s – no doubt about it. But, again, coming out of this, Hamish, these are questions that we have to address, as a society and a community, that we haven’t been able to address in the past. And what has happened here, as difficult and as terrible as it’s been, has given us the chance for a policy reset and rethink.

YAEL STONE

And when we reset that policy, we mustn’t suffer under this misinformation that gas is the solution because the environmental impacts of gas are vastly underestimated, in their processing and in its extraction. And for communities, like Ethan’s in NT, where they are currently fighting a huge battle against companies that want to frack and extract gas, they’re... sure, they’re having the chance to have their say, but they’re not really being listened to.

And they are fighting day in and day out with amazing young people, people like Amelia Telford and Seed Mob, who are saying, “No, we don’t want you in our land, we don’t want you in our country, and we don’t want your gas in our waterways.” And these are really big questions that have to be asked and have to be addressed, and a great shame to emerge from this would be that Australian people think that gas is the solution, because it’s not – we are a country rich in sun and wind, and we need to really harness those powers.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Danielle, what...?

INNES WILLOX

I don’t disagree with that at all. The difficulty here is we don’t have the storage or the battery capability at the moment for the renewables, and that’s where gas plays an important role. And if you don’t want gas, that’s fine, you can just... The consequences of that will be to throw tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Australians, who currently do have jobs, out of jobs. So, look, we have to find the balance here, and the way through, and the ‘yes’... ‘all yes’ and ‘all no’ – that has not served us well in the past. And that’s why we have to work through these issues creatively to find the outcomes, and that’s got to be part of the new normal.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I just want to bring in Danielle Wood here, because we are sort of talking about the specifics of the way forward on energy. And Nev Power – who’s the chairman of the COVID Commission – has pointed to gas as the answer when it comes to cheap energy, which he says is crucial to our recovery. The Energy Minister Angus Taylor has spoken about a gas-fired recovery. What’s your reaction when you hear that?

DANIELLE WOOD

Look, I think we need to be careful when we’re looking at the long-term recovery that we’re not locking in technologies that aren’t going to be there for the long term. So there is, you know, certainly a role for gas in the system at the moment but I would say, when we’re looking forward we should be looking how it is we can integrate renewables into the grid better, how we deal with those problems around battery storage that Innes just threw to, and there are a lot of green opportunities, I think, in the recovery.

Grattan put out a report last week looking at the opportunity around green steel, for example. So there are other areas in which we can help build industries in Australia. That’s an opportunity to build manufacturing in some of those coal communities where they will lose jobs as we transition over time, and we can do that in a way that’s good for the environment and good for the Australian economy. So I think they need to be looking much more broadly than just towards a gas-led recovery.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Our next question tonight is from Chris Shaw in Homebush.

CHRIS SHAW, HOMEBUSH, NSW

Since the Howard era, our tax and benefits system has been heavily skewed in favour of older Australians, and any attempt to fix this has been met with significant scare campaigns most notably, Labor’s 2019 election platform. My grandad, for example, received significant franking credit cash refunds and voted primarily on this issue. When I asked him about it, he knew that losing them wouldn’t affect his quality of life, but was still worried about what he’d been reading in the newspaper. So, how can we convince the beneficiaries of overly generous tax subsidies to sacrifice some of what they receive for the sake of those who are struggling?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Sophie?

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

Look, I think what has become really clear during the COVID pandemic is that the old economic way of thinking wasn’t working. And that’s really evident in the fact that we’ve seen, all across the world, all of these conservative governments are now leaning on the ideals of socialist democratic parties to drive us through this economic crisis, to fix the crisis. You know, we’re seeing major investment in people, making sure that people at the lower end of the spectrum – people who aren’t earning much money – are being adequately paid and aren’t being left behind.

Which is completely different to the old way of thinking where we were talking about big-business tax breaks and trickle-down economics and those sorts of really outdated ideas. And now we’re looking at these really socialist, social democratic ideals of really putting the people first. And I just want to point...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Can I just challenge you on that, though? Because we’ve had a lot of politicians come on this program – Australian politicians – during this period, and on both sides, they’re talking less about changing their mind and saying they’re just dropping the ideology.

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

Well, I think it’s quite interesting, there was a big campaign before COVID about raising the rate of Newstart, for example. And this was completely rejected by the government – that we couldn’t afford it, it was…you know, it was just completely pushed aside. And then, when COVID hit, the government raised the rate straightaway, added an additional $550. So that said to me, and I think it said to a lot of people, that the government actually acknowledged that that was a completely inadequate social safety net.

It actually wasn’t a safety net at all, because people just fell through. Which is a problem with the social security system in Australia. And we’ve seen the government take measures that we’ve been calling on for decades that have actually fixed it, that have picked people up in a time of desperate need. And I will just say it’s really terrifying to think that the government is talking about this expiry date of September for the JobSeeker and the JobKeeper payments, given that context that I just mentioned.

You know, we all saw the lines outside of Centrelink, the really devastating... People lining up through streets waiting for that JobKeeper payment. Imagine what that’s going to look like if the JobSeeker and the JobKeeper payment are dropped. We already know that people have lost jobs, some people have fallen through the cracks of that JobSeeker and JobKeeper payment. What are those scenes going to look like if that’s just dropped in September?

YAEL STONE

Well, I mean, hypothetically, you’ve got people who’ve had proper support for a time, it suddenly disappears, and then we see people engaging in survival behaviour – maybe that increases youth appearance in criminal justice systems, which then cycles into a whole area of recidivism. I mean, this has really serious implications to just suddenly drop people on their arses.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Innes Willox, what do you make of this idea of an intergenerational debt here? That because young people are the ones making a disproportionate set of sacrifices – if you believe the numbers – during the crisis, that then older generations should somehow repay that, whether it’s through climate change policy, or whether it’s through the tax concessions around their financial investments?

INNES WILLOX

Well, I think everyone’s suffering, Hamish. Some are suffering more than others, no doubt about that. But the suffering isn’t just, sort of, to one point. There’s a whole lot of pensioners out there who are suffering too, because their savings have been eroded.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But, to be fair, there’s been an overwhelming number of questions, though, tonight from young people pointing to these ideas. So that’s why I just want to understand your thinking on it.

INNES WILLOX

Yeah, no, that’s fine. The question that was just asked was about the tax system, and that then leads into a question around intergenerational debt, is where I think you’re going. So, we’ve got to balance the two things here. There were some pretty big assumptions just made in the last bit of commentary around what the government may or may not do after September 27 when JobKeeper is meant to run out. We don’t know yet.

That’s part of the policy response that the government has to work through. But, at the same time, we can’t continue to spend money endlessly. There has to be a line drawn somewhere and redrawn somehow. But if we don’t just, sort of, stop and rethink things and just continue to build up that debt, then it is the young people who are going to be paying that off right through their lives, and their children as well.

YAEL STONE

Is it worth thinking about the question that...

INNES WILLOX

That’s why we have to get the balance right. So you come back to tax reform – the point of the question. Yes, we do need wholesale tax review and a holistic review of our taxation system. No, we don’t have big companies that are getting off lightly. We have, sort of, the highest or second-highest tax rate for larger corporates in the OECD. We have an overreliance on income tax in our tax base. States rely on ridiculous amounts of stamp duty to get by. So we need a review of that sort of issue.

YAEL STONE

But in terms of what the question was...

INNES WILLOX

And I could keep going. So what we do need, for the benefit of younger people, is a serious review of the tax system.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK.

DANIELLE WOOD

Can I go to the question there?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Danielle, could I just take our next question? Because I think it’s going to land us in the territory that you want to get to. This is from Nicholas Rispoli. We’ve got a question from Nicholas Rispoli about Centrelink benefits and the situation that he now finds himself in. This is his question.

NICHOLAS RISPOLI, BEECROFT, NSW

I was employed full-time for five years and changed jobs in early March before being stood down due to COVID-19. I missed out on JobKeeper and am now on JobSeeker, being paid a touch over $600 a week. I hate this feeling of worthlessness, and I have been applying for jobs. I was recently offered 20 hours per week earning $700 for a disability company.

If I take this job, I will lose one-third of it in tax due to previous earnings, and I will also lose all Centrelink benefits. So, working 20 hours a week, I’ll be about $150 worse off than doing nothing sitting at home. How does the panel suggest a young, aspirational 25-year-old like myself get ahead in this situation?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Danielle Wood?

DANIELLE WOOD

Yeah, it’s a great question. You know, this has been – again – a longstanding pre-COVID issue with the way in which we deliver welfare support. So, because there are various cut-offs and cliffs associated with that support, it can mean that somebody that gets offered a part-time job – as we heard in that situation – would find themself worse off or not substantially better off if they were to take that job.

Obviously that’s quite a perverse incentive, so I think, when we’re going back after JobSeeker, the payment will not remain where it is, but what we need to do is make sure that, number one – it lands at a level that people can actually survive on, that people can afford to live on – and that’s probably $75, $100 a week above where it is now. Second of all, we need to look at those work incentives and how fast the payments taper off. That costs money. If we go back to the previous question about age-based tax breaks – there are substantial age bias in the tax system at the moment.

The questioner asked about refundable franking credits. There’s tax-free superannuation for over-65s, there’s 50% capital gains tax discounts. There are a whole lot of policies in place that, a lot of the time, aren’t serving a good policy purpose, that have created a substantial age bias in the tax system. So I think, when we start to talk about how we can pay for this, you could look to some of those – winding back some of those benefits that are far too generous.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But it has been, historically, very difficult to make changes to those benefits, hasn’t it?

DANIELLE WOOD

It has. It has. But let’s look at this period. We’ve heard that mantra – “We’re all in this together.” We’ve talked about, you know, everyone has felt the pain in some way, but young people have felt it particularly hard. I don’t think we should be asking young people to pay twice. And, you know, if we try and repair the budget on the other side by simply cutting back on welfare benefits, by letting income taxes continue to creep up through bracket creep, then that’s exactly what we’re asking to do. We need to look at this question a lot more holistically and make sure that we’re not asking a single group in society to bear too much of that cost.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. We’re going to shift gears now and take a question on something entirely different. This question is from Patricia Belardo in Footscray, Victoria.

PATRICIA BELARDO, FOOTSCRAY, VIC

Social distancing has been our greatest weapon against the spread of COVID, and everyone’s trying to do the right thing. But there’s a clear incompatibility between social distancing and physical interaction. In these uncertain times, when the lockdown duration is unclear, is the only option for single people to forego dating and sex indefinitely? What practical advice would you give socially conscious individuals trying to navigate dating and sex in the post-COVID world? Thank you.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK, Tim Fung, you’re all about the apps, what’s your answer?

TIM FUNG

Well, I’m glad you threw the question to me first off! I’m thinking of a good answer. I would say, it’s amazing to see the transition that we’ve seen, people go from, you know, doing things that are traditionally done in person to things that are done remotely. So I think, you know, it’s the case of working on making sure that we have superfast internet connections, and being able to have remote interactions to replicate, you know, the things that were traditionally done in person. But, look, I think in all seriousness, it’s a tough time for everyone. I think this is why there is such, you know, a high level of mental illness and it’s very tough.

You know, even, you know, taking it, you know, from things like dating to a comparison to the workplace, you know, we’re now, you know, 70 days into, you know, complete isolation. And many people live either alone – and that’s not good – or they live in big families, and that’s also not very healthy either. So I think that, you know, there is going to be a space for a lot that we can do to support mental illness during this time.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Sophie?

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

I think, you know, we’ve got, you know, all these dating apps nowadays and people are, you know, constantly swiping through. And I think just get to know each other. Like, now’s the time. Like, you’re probably piling up all your matches. Get to know the person before you go out and see them.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But what, get to know them online, or do you go on a sort of exercise date?

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

Well, I haven’t myself, but I definitely have friends that have done some video dates.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK.

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

You know, having a wine, you know...

HAMISH MACDONALD

A Zoom sort of...

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

A Zoom sort of situation, yeah. It’s like a work meeting, but with a wine and a potential lover, I guess, so...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Come on, Yael, what’s your advice here?

YAEL STONE

Look, with all this chat about robotics stealing jobs, I think this could be the one time when robots could really step in and change things. I think there’s going to be some really exciting technologies emerging to bring people closer together romantically, intimately, via the robots.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. That was an answer I did not expect! Danielle Wood, any thoughts from you?

DANIELLE WOOD

Look, I think I like things the old-fashioned way, but, you know, I think we’ve discovered there’s a lot you can do with Zoom, and so the Zoom date’s probably another way to go.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Goodness me! I’ve really been missing out on the Zoom meetings here! None of mine have been anything like the ones you lot have been up to! Alright.

TIM FUNG

As long as they’re secure and private!

HAMISH MACDONALD

Yes. Alright, let’s take our next question tonight. It’s from Gum Mamur in Footscray.

GUM MAMUR, FOOTSCRAY, VIC

I’m a youth working in Melbourne. How does the panel think we should respond to the increasing demand for mental health support for young people as a result of COVID-19?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Tim Fung, let me go to you on that. I mean, you just touched on it then. There is a very serious side to this.

TIM FUNG

For sure. I mean, you know, we’re seeing that people are isolated, and many people, especially those that are more extroverted and get energy from working directly with other people in person...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Because your whole company’s been operating online.

TIM FUNG

That’s right, yeah. We’re into week 11, I think, of working from home. And that’s definitely had an impact. You know, here in Sydney and also we have offices in Asia as well, and those people are also working completely remotely. One of the really powerful things is that telehealth is now also available through, you know, remote services like via Zoom and other methods. So that’s been really, really powerful.

SOPHIE JOHNSTON

I just want to jump in there, because I think that we have a really big problem in society where we look at mental health in silos. And this has been a really big topic of the commission – mental health has come up over and over and over again. And we’ve been across the country talking to young people in cities, in regions, in rural towns, and it keeps coming up. And we can’t just look at it in this really isolated way, because there are so many factors that come into it.

Obviously, with COVID-19, we can expect that there’s going to be an increase, a spike, in mental health issues. But all of these other things come into it. When you’re financially insecure, when you’re worried about if you’re going to have a job the next week, when you’re worried about if your Centrelink’s going to be cut off – which happens all the time for young people – all of these things kind of come together. And I think that, you know, for the government, I know they made an announcement, I think it was last week, which was really positive, investing in mental health, but we can’t do that alone.

We need to look at all of the factors that are coming into play here. Social media is another one – a huge one – that came up from particularly a lot of school-aged students and teachers. So I think that, you know, my message on mental health here is, you know, we can’t just look at it alone. We need to look at the broader picture.

YAEL STONE

And zooming out and seeing those connections is so important, and when we look at an unemployment rate at 13.8%, of course that scarcity of work is going to be terrifying on a monetary level, but also in terms of identity. And when we’re talking to recent graduates who are worried about where they’re going to go and what kind of work they’re going to pursue, well, that goes across the spectrum of society. People who are lucky enough to go to university and people who aren’t. But everyone’s looking for an identity.

And we’re talking about young people here. So these are critical times in your life. 18 to 25, when you’re looking to kind of find your mission in the world. And, again, perhaps this could be a policy issue where we engage young people in a conversation about what does a brighter future look like? How can we give young people a sense of identity and a sense of ownership over what right now is a bleak future but could be flipped into an opportunity of giving them the driver’s seat again?

TIM FUNG

I think another thing, as well, is that, you know, people... You know, we shouldn’t always externalise these problems and kind of say, “It’s the problem of government,” or “Someone’s got to do something.” I think in many of these cases when it has to do with mental illness in your local community or in your local networks, a lot of it’s just got to do with us. You know, like, what can we do to just be kinder to people, be a little bit more generous to people, and, you know, this is a tough time, I think we’ve all got to chip in and do our part.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Danielle Wood, the sample of questions that you’ve seen tonight is small, but, I mean, we’ve read and watched hundreds of them come in from genuinely very distressed young people over the last few days. Do you find it shocking, the number of young Australians that now have very genuine fears about their future?

DANIELLE WOOD

I do. I think it’s profoundly shocking. I mean, you know, I’ve felt, you know, pretty dismayed every day since this really hit, you know, thinking about what this means for those people, thinking what that means for business. You know, this has been absolutely devastating, this crisis. You know, what I would say to those young people is we do know, from past economic downturns, that things do get better. I understand it’s hard now.

You know, it looks like a pretty devastating outlook, but things will improve, so hang in there. You know, use the time to build capital. You know, go out, get a new skill, talk to people. You know, stay positive and realise that, you know, we will come out on the other side, and there will be opportunities available again.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Well, that is almost all we’ve got time for tonight. Thanks to our panel – Sophie Johnston, to Innes Willox, Yael Stone, Danielle Wood and Tim Fung. And thank you to you at home for sharing your questions and stories with us tonight. Next week, we’re going to bring together some big thinkers to discuss how we build a better Australia after the pandemic.

We’re going to leave you tonight with a song about tough times for young people. It’s been written by students at Bourke High School. It moved everyone in our team. I’m sure you will enjoy it as well. It’s called Thundercloud, and it’s brilliant.

GIRL

This song is dedicated to everyone who’s struggling.

GIRL 2

No matter who you are, where you come from, what colour you is.

GIRL

..to everyone who’s struggling...

GIRL 3

Keep your chin up, cuz, you’re not in it alone.

You’re not in it alone.

SONG

# The weight of the world feels like it’s holding me down
# I can’t breathe, I can’t eat, I can’t think, I can’t sleep
# Blood pumping head to my feet, giving me a double heartbeat
# The pressure and the pain feels like a thundercloud
# I’m underwater bubbling, I’m struggling to stand
# But I’m stumbling, tumbling, trying to get to dry land

# Lately I been struggling, I been losing sleep
# Days turn into nights, nights turn into weeks
# Can’t think, can’t eat, nightmares on repeat
# Like the fire’s going out on these B-Town streets
# Thoughts run deep – wasn’t always like this
# Is this really supposed to be the way that life is?
# Take every opportunity, even though you might miss
# ‘Cause my spirit runs deep
# Grip it with a tight fist
# Lately it’s been hard, got plenty going on
# No-one understands me, like I’m always in the wrong
# Try to keep it all together, tell myself to be strong

# But at school or home with mob, it’s like there’s nowhere I belong
# Another day, another drama, another funeral come around
# Grief like an everyday yarn in B-Town
# Everybody getting locked up, they drunk and they stoned
# And to top it all off, I got no credit on my damn phone

# The weight of the world feels like it’s holding me down
# I can’t breathe, I can’t eat, I can’t think, I can’t sleep
# Blood pumping head to my feet, giving me a double heartbeat
# The pressure and the pain feels like a thundercloud
# I’m underwater bubbling, I’m struggling to stand
# But I’m stumbling, tumbling, trying to get to dry land
# Feel the weight of the world, feel the pressure and the pain

# Sick of doubt, sick of blame, sick of drama, sick of shame
# Gonna change this up, ‘cause we the BT Dub
# We be the leaders of a new age, new day, wassup?
# Don’t doubt yourself, gotta be bigger, gotta be better
# Gotta be strong
# Get up!
# We gonna give in?
# Never!
# Better pick yourself up, better make the right call
# Because together we rise up and divided we fall
# Gotta lead by example, layshe, gotta walk the walk

# I never ever thought that people would listen when I talk
# Now I’m focusing on sport, trying to stay away from court
# I’ll be the black brother that you need when you’re looking for support
# Don’t let the pressure get you down, let the stresses of the town
# Pull a brother under water, feeling like he ‘bout to drown
# Take a different track, bring it back, feet upon the ground
# All my brothers, chin up, don’t let the world get ya down

# The weight of the world feels like it’s holding me down
# I can’t breathe, I can’t eat, I can’t think, I can’t sleep
# Blood pumping head to my feet, giving me a double heartbeat
# The pressure and the pain feels like a thundercloud
# I’m underwater bubbling, I’m struggling to stand
# But I’m stumbling, tumbling, trying to get to dry land

# The weight of the world feels like it’s holding me down
# I can’t breathe, I can’t eat, I can’t think, I can’t sleep
# Blood pumping head to my feet, giving me a double heartbeat
# The pressure and the pain feels like a thundercloud
# I’m underwater bubbling, I’m struggling to stand
# But I’m stumbling, tumbling, trying to get to dry land

# When I talk
# Listen when I talk
# Listen when I talk
# Listen when I talk
# Listen when I talk
# Listen when I talk
# Listen when I talk
# Listen when I talk. #