Hey everybody, it’s Michael. Before we jump into the episode I wanted to let you know that we’re celebrating a year and a half of The Drunken UX Podcast by giving away a chemistry book flask to one lucky listener! Now, yes, I know “chemistry book flask” sounds confusing. It’s not a flask shaped like a chemistry book, it’s a flask that comes inside a chemistry book, all covert-like. I don’t endorse taking it to work with you. Unless you just want to show it off, because Aaron and I will autograph it, too. You’ll be the most popular dev on the team! You have until June 30th, 2019 to enter to win it, so if you’re listening after that, ding us anyway. Maybe we have a new giveaway going on! Who knows, it’s the future then. All you have to do to enter to win the flask is share a tweet or Facebook post with The Drunken UX Podcast tagged in it. Best of all, you can enter up to ten times. There are a few conditions, of course, and you can find them all on the blog at our website at drunkenux.com.

Welcome to The Drunken UX Podcast, everybody. I’m glad that you’ve taken the time to sit down on your train, in your car, in your home, in your office, or wherever you’re listening to us. Hopefully not in your basement in the creepy room where the spiders are because that would be scary. I’m your host, Michael Fienen.

There are no spiders there. There are no spiders in your head.

I want to give a quick shout out to our sponsor over at New cloud. You can check them out at New cloud.com slash drunken UX. They do maps, illustrations, and all kinds of stuff over there. So stop by check them out. Let them know that you’re listening to the show and that you want to spend millions of dollars on. I’m sure that’s a thing. Let’s see Aaron tell the fine folks at home where they can find us. Come and

I know that’s not that’s not a thing. Yeah, I don’t know what I would Snapchat

Anything there. I would do like little quick videos or something I’ll throw up on Instagram. Which speaking of if you aren’t following us on any of the social stuff yet go ahead and and get ready to do that because we will be announcing a little giveaway contest the simple kind of thing in the near future. Maybe by the time this episode comes out. Maybe not. I don’t know. I can’t predict the future. I’m not Nosferatu.

It’s It’s It’s a little thing, but it’s just our appreciation. Yeah, speaking of the appreciations. I’m drinking scotch tonight, which is a shock to everybody. What’s up?

recently, and less than recently and a long time ago, as it turns out, Spain burn 10 so it’s not fancy. It’s actually I think $35 a bottle or something. It’s a fairly, you know, entry level scotch. I’m tired of looking at it. It’s been on my shelf in my bar for probably the last year and a half. So I’m I’m committing to trying to finish it out in the next couple weeks. It’s not bad. Like I’m not saying that. Like it’s some terrible turpentine tasting scotch. It’s just not fancy like it does. It just tastes like kind of like liquor, though. It’s you don’t want to drink a lot of it.

Where was that from?

Justin, Jason J.

JOHN. Donovan.

Give me an hour, I won’t be writing more. This evening on the show, we have brought back a guest to that we are both big fans of and we hope that you are to You heard him back on episode 12. When we were talking about the basics of web security when it comes to setting up your first website. It is Chris Weidman, the senior software engineer at WP engine. The creator of I themes security, or what as it was called back in the dark ages, better WP security. And he’s also a budding microphone engineer. As it turns out, little inside joke.

it’s funnier if they don’t.

Usability Am I right? Yeah, for real. So this evening, we brought Chris on for a very specific reason not because we love his beautiful face, although that is also true. But largely because he works at WP Engine. And WP Engine just got done doing something super cool, which is launching a dev kit for WordPress sites. And so we wanted to get him on here as quickly as humanly possible. I don’t know if we’re going to be the first show to have him on or not. But I’m I tried to act as quickly as I could. For that first one. So yeah, we wanted to talk about that, because it’s a very interesting development, no pun intended in the WordPress world. And it has some very neat implications. I’ve been playing with it. We’re recording on June 13. This launched, I think, on the 11th. Right. So I had all have two days to play with this day and a half early. And I’m already pretty much figuring out how this is going to slot into my workflow and take over some of what we were doing.

very neat if you want to go read up on it and get some of the ins and outs in the background that there is a blog post up on WP engines website, we’ll have a link to that in the show notes. It’s worth stopping by and reading, they’ll have a they have a link to it to their dev kit landing page as well. So you can go download the beta, this is beta, it’s brand new software version, point, x

So let’s talk real quick, because before we talk about what this does, let’s kind of understand how a lot of people build WordPress sites, or at least have in the past, because we’ve all done variations on some of these things, right that you either if you’re a Mac or Linux, you may have got lamp or map packages that you downloaded that kind of just bring everything all in one sets it up, you get Apache, you get my sequel, you get PHP, and it’s just kind of there and working for you. So you have somewhere to put your site. There’s also the idea of editing and production, which as much as you know, a professional would say you just don’t do that, then we all have and we all do, I have no doubt, I have a bad habit of doing that with CSS, I admit it completely. But that process, SAS was very informal, so to speak, everybody kind of had their own way of going about it. A lot of folks, you know, if you use like a LAMP stack in your environment, you would do stuff like then you’d also edit your hosts files to put in local domains and things like that, you always ended up with stuff bound to Port 80 unless you stopped services. So this is this can be a challenge. If you’re trying to run like different web apps on your local environment, I could test suite, let’s say you know, some tests, we have a web component to them. And it also the other thing, especially with a like a lamp, or if you were trying to do it as a roll your own kind of solution, you kind of had to end up being the sort of weird Server Admin without really being one but you had to understand how to set up a patchy, how to write your, your site configurations and things like that. And it’s a skill that doesn’t always lend itself to a designer or developer or all the time. So this, this was not a good

Zap I used zap for a long time. I remember years, same thing. x x am pp. x am what’s the x? a letter? Okay. I off the top of my head. I honestly

think you’re right, though, because it did have like a Linux image, no sx image. So that would make sense that cool. That’s what they were going for. I also included pearl. Whereas, oh, man, that’s all that’s just mean.

But you’re right, though, that these were like these all in one tools that helped kind of just bootstrap that process. Because especially, you know, when you start going back years, that process of setting some of those things up, especially in a Windows environment was very challenging. And, you know, I don’t know about a lot of folks, but you know, Windows was my first experience in a computer. For a lot of folks, it may have been like, OS X, or what was before I was x is nine,

These these things, though, didn’t lend themselves well to this development stuff. So it was handy having tools to get you up and running. I used zap for years on an old 98 server that I had that would just like sit in the corner paint, but I ran a an mp3 server on it. Before before we had like iTunes and Google music and everything, I would just rip all my CDs mp3, put them on there. And then when I was at work, I could just pull up my own little local web page. And listen to my music from the house. I was like revolutionary at that point in terms of streaming music, but it’s it’s still funny to me how there was a period when mp3 is aren’t strictly illegal. And mp3 file sharing wasn’t strictly legal. But you could just do it. And nobody would care other than the fact that they were just big in space was a premium. But I had my own like these were my CDs, I rip them legally. I’m not afraid of that. And then there was all the other stuff that I got from my roommates. And we won’t go into that. So anyway, staging is the problem with WordPress staging is where things start to get a little screwy because it’s, I would, I will say, you know, relatively speaking, easy to set up a local development environment, there are a lot of ways to do it. They aren’t consistent, but it can be done and you’re there. where things get challenging with WordPress is setting up an environment that you can work in. That is a staging or development environment that can then push to another environment

staging is like a place to go look at something. So if you think about a staged house, when you go walk into a staged house, it has fake furniture, and it lets you see what that house would look like, you know, once you moved into it, as opposed to walking into an empty house, that’s a new build. And because I always say, you know that, that when you’re selling a house, it’s much easier to do if the person can visualize themselves living there, that’s harder to do if your house is empty. So staging sites let you deploy features or content, a lot of folks will use a staging site as what we call an authoring environment, where they will write content or create pages, that’s interesting, not not what you know, without development involved, but lets them write everything and proofread it and get approvals and things like that, that will also happen on a lot of staging sites. That’s a workflow that we use with my company.

I, that sounds relatively accurate, I think web development brought to you by Harry Potter. There’s a There’s our next shirt idea added to the pin board, what’s the spell they use, let’s we’ll we’ll use that as our up, get deploy command. So with with staging, there’s an article over at the mile, they describe a lot of these different ways of creating a staging site and whatnot, very much worth going and checking out there. The thing that I’ve always had a problem with, when it comes to setting up staging and development sites is the various tools that are available to escalate code or escalate features or content between the environments, they have a bad job distinguishing between granularity. And they, a lot of them are very much all or nothing pushes,

right? Like saying, I want this page, I built this page, send it over, as opposed to, we can’t send you the page, we can send the whole database. Version press, I think gets around that I would have I haven’t used version press in a project for every so I have very vague memories on it. I think they kind of had figured that out. WP Engine has this feature, for better or worse. They allow pushing between environments. And they let you pick whether you want just database or files or all of it. But that’s really all. So you’re staging that where this comes into conflict a little bit as your staging can’t act as an authoring environment. Because you can’t push just your content, you have to push everything if that’s going to happen. And that can be very,

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, that’s that is on the the platform itself as a feature. But it does work well like that the feature as it is constructed, does its job. And we we use it quite regularly to deploy, we use GitHub, to host our themes. We deploy those into our dev site, we check it out. If everything works great. We’re able to move that between Dev and staging and so forth. There are other tools, stage coaches, one that comes to mind. It’s a paid software as a service platform. And there’s a plugin called WP staging, which I don’t have experience with but is supposed to operate kind of in that realm.

And you can leverage the WPC Li for a lot of stuff. Yeah. So you can you can script out something that would say, for instance, push all the new content after x date, you could query the CLA for you pages or whatever, forget that exists. But it’s really cool. But it’s that’s very like, you got to be a plumber. You know, that’s, that is high level stuff once you’re getting into that. Because not only you have to know the Seelye, you’ve got to know scripting and whatnot, you’ve got to have either, you know, Jenkins or in something set up for the CI piece of it. It’s not easy, like the end, and there isn’t a good like that that’s still to me is an unsolved problem across the ecosystem. For the most part,

solved it. It feels you know, the when it when you talk about WordPress and doing development versus production environments and trying to move data between them, you start to realize why there are CMS is with these features and their enterprise level. And they cost a lot of money. Because while it seems intuitive, where you say, Well, I just want to push this page, it can be done, there are certainly you know, there are the plugins that will do it. But they are complicated pieces of work. Because when you get under the hood, and you start looking at you know, the way content is established, the way ideas come into play, the way content is related through the media library to it. And that stuff is all ID then has its own stuff. You know whether or not there are plugin dependencies, and there are all these little intricacies that start to come into play, to say, Well, I want to push this page and make sure that all the right stuff ends up there. And none of the wrong stuff does. That’s

And my sequel, quite frankly, lacks some of the power necessary, I think to do that. Well. In some cases,

Yeah. So this is where we start to lead into then your work, Chris. So you teamed up with a fellow on your team, Jason Stallings is my understanding. And you said, There’s got to be a better way. And so how long ago did you start in on this?

This is I’m cool.

Cool. You mentioned your rough course Docker and vagrant is sort of what things are evolving into from a workflow standpoint is like you say, now we’re at this point where we’re thinking about this as I’m part of a team, I work with other folks, we need to edit these WordPress sites from time to time. We need a this and I use this phrase in the last episode, I think the single source of truth. You know, we all need to be working from the same point to make sure that our output is the same because we’re all working together. We’re all coming to the same places and all of that. flywheel is another one that comes to mind. I have not used flywheel but it’s been recommended to me about 1,000,000,007 times by this point. But if it also it’s it is a tool, right, that is you know, the very, very similar wheelhouse to this.

So you, you kind of touch on the same problem I had. with Docker, you had it with vagrant, it sounds like but this idea that local Docker works, that you can set up a site, I’ve got this Docker compose file that is designed to deploy our site with the theme, the theme is set up with a link to our repo that does all this cool stuff. But it’s not great. The experience has left me a little bit lacking one of the things is like I’m using the stock WordPress image that’s in a Docker Hub. But I’ve noticed that there are issues with file permissions inside that image, like when I spin up the container, I have to then go in and permission the the WP content folder manually, because for some reason it’s deploying with the wrong permissions on it. And nobody’s bothered fixing that. And I would I don’t know how so I can’t, I can’t fix that for him. You know, bit Nami is one that some folks that probably if you’ve looked into using Docker with WordPress, the bit Nami images of probably past your radar, at some point, they have kind of approached this with that idea of kind of trying to solve some of those problems. I also think they recommend the plug with Maria DB instead of my sequel for what it’s worth. But you end up even if you get your stuff running perfectly, and you figured out the issues with like database and file persistence, and all of this, that because the fun thing is when you’re developing just a theme, and you’ve included your Docker stuff in the theme, you get in, you get into this whole get ignore chain with like, storing the MySQL files locally, and then get ignoring those files. And it’s it’s hairy, but you you get there you figure it out. But you then have to maintain those Docker compose files. So when WordPress updates, you got to go in and change, you know, make sure you’re running on whatever version of the image that you’re going to be running on on your local site and things like that. So it’s good. It’s getting there. But it still feels like a grind. And I think, you know, there is a technical level of expertise that comes with really running Docker, well, that isn’t friendly to like a low level, like a junior Dev, I think.

totally all the way down. Unknown Speaker Exactly.

So I got excited because when and for the listeners at home, we use WP Engine. at my company, we’ve got all of our WordPress sites hosted in it, satisfied customer, then not a not a paid testimonial. I liked WP Engine, it works very well for us. I think it does what we need it to very, very nicely. And I was super excited when I saw they had get integration, I became less excited when I saw how get integration worked. It was kind of just a proxy for FTP is kind of what it amounted to. And you what you had to do was you had to put your entire site into the get repo then not just login, it was not not not normal. But my immediate reaction to the dev kit was a very positive even though it uses a similar modality in pulling down the whole site. Once file system is on your computer, it’s very easy then to host your stuff in your own folders with your own repos or whatever at that point. But this is like I saw from from second one, I saw the value and how this was going to change the way I build WordPress websites.

there’s nobody wants to maintain WordPress as a whole in their get repo. And that’s why

let’s dig in, specifically into dev kit. First and foremost, I want to talk about or I need to talk about Swan say, while this is a tool being released by WP Engine, it is not necessarily limited to WP Engine, anybody can use the dev kit. For the most part, you just don’t get every benefit, obviously, because you are kind of tied like the push pull mechanism, the clone mechanism, those are very much bound to having a WordPress engine account. But if I just said I want you know, I’m going to do WP E, new project test, it’ll start up a perfectly good WordPress site for me.

I will say that even without that just that ability to spin up an environment and just have it work. If you if you feel like Docker is daunting, or you’re scared of if you’re scared of trying to edit your own Docker compose file, then that’s one of those things that it’s like this solves all of that it’s a couple commands, and you’re good to go basically.

And if you don’t know about SSL, feel free to go back to Episode 12. Or we also had Chris on, and he will be more than happy to educate you in that episode a little bit about some of the security aspects of web development. Anyway, that the way I wrote this in the show notes, I use the phrase, it’s a curated Docker experience for WordPress, you have basically said Docker is the solution for this. But we don’t want you to have to think about that. And I really respect that because from the moment I started using it, that was the way it felt. I didn’t have to think about, you know which versions of stuff I was typing, I didn’t have to think about those. Now, it may come in when I start getting into version development and stuff. Maybe that will come up. But from the start, at least it just worked for me. And that was a very nice feeling.

Does the user have to have Docker itself installed on their machine? Or does this come with what it needs? From a dependency standpoint there?

Awesome. And I went through that process. That was exactly what I used. And it just it just worked. It’s like four commands totally in total.

I will give one word of caution. I say it just worked. It ran into one hiccup, but it was my fault, which was that the version of Ubuntu that I’m running, which I think is 1804. The default version of Docker compose that is like the the gold standard is 117. And I think yours needs 123. So I had to update my local version of Docker compose, but that was trivial. So

Oh, I did it. Yeah, I can do it. Anybody can.

So I stole this from WP tavern. So WP Tavern on, I think the 12th or 11th, they put out a little announcement of this whole thing. And they’ve got a nice little write up and that includes some of the details. So I copied the feature list straight from them. I’m just going to read down very quickly for everybody. So if you go get the dev kit what you’re getting is a container based local development environment which I think we’ve kind of described at this point. You get SSH gateway ass access, push and pull deployments to WP Engine preview your local site and others via in Iraq. That’s your local serving preview your local site with others via in Iraq because I read that a second time because my eyes didn’t skip to the next line which was page papers and selection, email testing client MySQL, local SSH and WPC Li, Genesis Framework integration, PHP, my admin web grind varnish, https proxy and x debug. That’s a lot of stuff to get in one package that when I mentioned earlier that doc maintaining Docker compose files is kind of a pain in the ass. That’s kind of what you’ve taken care of there. Right, Chris? You’ve added all that in and you’re you’re taking care of that for me.

Oh, God, we pull

casts, I hope.

And for everybody else. If you aren’t familiar with the phrase ci it’s, it means continuous integration. So what it means is, as you commit things, it’s continuously running some kind of command. So if you commit to a get repo, it may detect that, that push, and it will pull the repo and then compile code or run tests, deploy things, send them to an alpha server, gold server, staging server. It’s it’s kind of that middle man that does all the things that we used to write lots and lots of scripts and commands for basically, but throw that out there. What a hit on one of these very briefly because it was the one that caught my eye the most out of everything. Genesis Framework integration. Explain that part to me. What’s the What are you pulling in from Genesis and and empowering there for folks

So the process for using this if you’re interested in and figuring out what this is all about first and foremost, will have a link in the show notes. Go to the dev kit landing page. You go to the landing page, you fill out a quick form, and they give you a download file or instructions. I can’t remember which way it went to instructions, instructions. Yeah. And then you have to do the download because you’re either downloading stuff for Xcode or homebrew rather and doing app get work. Install that relatively painless. If you’re listening to this episode, and you get in there and you try it and you get stuck. Send us a message. I’ll help you out. I’ll figure out a way to get to work you through that I’m sure we can figure out what the problem is. get it installed. That’s first and foremost. Then you run I let me see if I can do this from memory. It’s WP setup. Unknown Speaker which asks a few very WP WP WP

So I can’t do it from memory. We’ve looked we now know, WP setup it last few a few questions of which I know one is your WordPress engine email address, which if you don’t have you don’t have so you just skip that question. It asks some other questions that I think there are like four questions. And I I remember the email one, I don’t remember the other ones, but they’re just very simple. You know, environmental type questions,

That’s actually super cool. because it demonstrates a use of analytics outside of a web page.

Which the SSH again is only useful at this point if you’re an WP Engine client, correct. And also worth noting, make sure if you go through that step that you if you use, like I have a SSH key pair that I use for many things that’s already generated. And I can’t remember if you say yes or no, I went through one of those and I had to go back and redo it because it generated one for me. I was like, Oh, no, I don’t want to use the generated one. I have one that is the key. So

so that but very quick, very easy run the questions it’s the you know, if he if you can’t answer I’m just don’t. Then it says simple as if you’re a WP Engine customer then it’s WP clone and then your environment name. Otherwise, WP project new name or project new name new, can’t remember a

And it’ll just it’ll download the latest version of WordPress, it’ll make a folder for you put all that in there. And you have a site running at I think it’s a whatever the name is. So if you say it’s test site, it’s going to be test site dot test colon 3000. And you just have a site running,

Yes, yeah, you are you are correct, actually, because i have i and this is where so I said earlier, if you already have services bound the Port 80 I run a local Apache because I run main WP, I run a local version of main WP to manage all my WordPress sites. And I just didn’t want to screw with ports. But the Port 80 and I assigned to the domain name and when so yeah, my port ad is used skipped to the next available.

works. And it’s again, it’s one of those things that we used to have to think about. Or if you’re a doctor, you have to think about what port Can I bind this to, and are you know the normal way is roll dice and see what comes up and that’s the the port will assign to it over over 3000 or whatever. But once you have that it sets everything up. It runs through a cleanup process and then it says you’re good to go. All you have to do is run WP start our WP start WP stop and start and stop brings that server up and down in that folder. And you once you run start, you’ve got a site running if you type in your domain name with a port if if you need to, it’s there and as complete as it needs to be in terms of whether you clone stuff that the way that I’ve done it in the past, like my process was with Docker, use a vanilla WordPress image it downloads and and sets up I have 2019 running. But I’ll use something like updraft to pick up a whole backup file, bring it over, drop it in. And then that gives me all my content, all my plugins, everything that I was writing on the site that I’m working on, for instance. And you can do that here as well, if that’s if you’re not a WP Engine client, and you still want to use the tool and do that that’s just the process you would use is whatever backup tool you use, install that on this site and then pull a database over. Easy peasy. At least I hope it sounds that way.

security through obscurity. hoping somebody doesn’t just guess numbers, right? But

that and that’s where max at the way back handles Docker is not awesome.

yeah. So let’s talk about that, though. Because obviously this phrase is come up a lot, right? Early beta. This is a beta release. Obviously, you guys are excited, I’m sure WP Engine is is thrilled about what this can do to you know, their prospects and how they can empower the folks who developed stuff on their service. So obviously, there’s a lot to come. The the first that I know has been mentioned and and some of the artists, I think WP Tavern has mentioned that you alluded to it was coming up with a GUI so that if you’re not comfortable in the command line, which some developers just aren’t, and that’s okay. There will at some point, be a GUI that might help you along graphical user interface.

now that makes sense. electron is a framework, like if you’ve used whether it’s discord or Slack, a lot of folks have experience with one or those one or both of those. Those are both built on electron,

Oh, is it really?

So I have to ask the big question, which is, obviously this is important for WP Engine, you are lower than anything a company does is first and foremost, looking towards itself, the push pull mechanism is awesome. Being able to clone a site down is is great. But will we see that maybe for self hosted sites at some point in the future?

updraft, which is a backup and restore plugin, for folks who aren’t familiar, I’m not I’m, but let’s say I am, there is, you know, maybe a road where I could look at your tool and be like, I’m gonna write a hook into your, your push pull process that would look for an updraft backup file at a site, you know, given an API key or something like that, that could then when when you do a WP start, it could clone a site automatically from a backup file.

I know that feeling, feeling? Well, it’s Yeah, I get it. Let me switch gears a little bit. And you mentioned part of this, the answer to this question, I think which because my question was going to go towards test suites. So if you have read any of like the the make.wordpress.org documentation, if you’re a theme developer, or plugin the helper, they have references to PHP unit and Q unit, respectively, for setting up testing on the things you’re making, so that if you want to eventually release something to the the theme repo or the plugin repo, you’ll be able to do that. It sounds like you said, You’ve already got PHP unit included or soon to be included.

And that, that went into a direction I didn’t even think about in terms of being able to live in dev kit into your editor, and and bring in some of that stuff so that it’s already done and integrated from a coding standpoint, that would be very killer.

So let me ask the big question, which comes into one of the challenges with a doctor, for instance, one of our workflow challenges has been if you are a new developer, or let’s say you’ve cleaned up your development environment, because you haven’t touched a site for a year, but now you’ve got a ticket that you need to clone the site down and work on it. The process of using just Docker, pull down the repo run Docker compose up, it sets up a WordPress environment. But then we go through this whole process of Okay, now I got to install updraft, I gotta go to the site I’m working on I have to pull their up draft plugin or their updraft backup files, download those, upload those into my server, do a restore, I’ve got this process. And it’s not a great process. I’m sure we could improve it ourselves. But I’m wondering about from the standpoint of your tool, like having injury scripts that could run perhaps once the, you know, being able to define like a, you know, first run sh file or something that might be a bash script that utilizes WP CLA to kind of automate business processes that might need to take place to populate a dev database, let’s say, is that something that you’ve been thinking about? Or is it maybe a wedding?

I’ll be interested to see how it turns out. I mean, I’m already a convert, I think at this point. So I don’t have a whole lot. I can say bad.

I’ve tried to bring them over to the light side. But it’s it’s just not working.

I’ve been immersing myself in Zach Gordon’s courses on Gutenberg development. So for me, it’s like I’m thinking about the possibilities of, you know, talking about react and things like that. You know, that process, I’m using some of these command line tools, I create gluten block and stuff to kind of bootstrap some of those tools and make it quicker and easier. And the ability that I think a tool like this could give me to very quickly spin up an environment and test, you know, I in fact, I’ve got a plugin right now that I’m developing for some app work that is going to come into Gutenberg, being able to spin up that plugin, have a local environment that I can test it on that is as vanilla or not vanilla, as I choose to have it and not have to take, you know, 15 minutes to set up a Docker container for it or something like that. I think that’s going to be big, especially for folks who are trying to figure out all the Gutenberg stuff. And, you know, I’m a PHP developer, but now I got to learn JavaScript. And I’ve never dealt with, you know, any of this stuff. Like, those are questions that people have that the easier we can make them the answer. I think the better and it’s very cool that this makes I feel like this is going to make that very painless for a lot of people. Yeah.

But and for folks who are wondering just how fragmented This is? Gutenberg? Right about I think it was almost the exact same time that you announced dev kit. They announced the Drupal Gutenberg add on at 1.0. So they lifted Gutenberg and this was something that Matt had promised, I think, you know, a year ago or whatever, at, at the word camp us or whatever, that this idea that Gutenberg, while it’s going to be in WordPress can it’s, it’s it’s a react app, it can be picked up and used anywhere at that point. And so here we are on June 13. And we have Gutenberg and Drupal, though.

I will find a Drupal developer and I will bring them on the show to talk about that. I didn’t

That I have feelings.

I have used Drupal in the past.

Our enterprise sites are still all dot CMS.

Okay, cool. It’s come a huge way to us in the last What? My god 11 years I’ve been using that system,

Yes. A fun fact, for anybody who really wants to go do some digging on me. There is a book that can be found that I wrote on how to build sites and CMS. I finally got to the point where I saw people were still buying it, but it was so out of date that I felt bad. So I was like, I have to take this down. It can’t be a thing anymore. So Unknown Speaker uh,

well, I think we just got done talking about dev kit, didn’t we? Sounds about right. Let’s take a second. Give everybody a breather. And then we’ll come back and we’ll wrap up the show. How’s that sound?

The drunken UX podcast is brought to you by our friends at New cloud. New cloud is an industry leading interactive map provider who has been building location based solutions for organizations for a decade. Are you trying to find a simple solution to provide your users with an interactive map of your school, city or business? Well, new clouds interactive map platform gives you the power to make and edit a custom interactive map in just two minutes. They have a team of professional cartographers who specialize in map illustrations of many different styles and are ready to design and artistic rendering to fit your exact needs. One map serves all of your users devices with responsive maps that are designed to scale and blend in seamlessly with your existing website. To request a demonstration, or to view their portfolio, visit them online at New cloud.com slash drunken UX that’s in you cloud.com slash drunken UX. Chris, man, thanks for taking your evening out of the week to sit down with us and talk about this. I know that when things like this happen between blogs that want to get quotes from you, and I’m sure other podcasts that are trying to pull you on, you have a lot on your plate. So thanks for taking the time to talk to our folks this evening. As a reward for that, that’s a horrible way but Ben, take a couple minutes. tell everybody where they can find you what you got going on. Obviously this is a big deal. But if there’s anything else that you’re going to be at or you’re doing or you want to draw attention to. Now is your moment. let the light shine.

you mentioned mastodon which I hadn’t heard of. So I was looking it up real fast while you were talking. It reminds me of counter social.

I’m at Twitter, that’s what happens. Hey, and so are we, if you’re looking for drunken UX, go Oh, that was an

would have been so smooth be just let me go even better. Go. We are on Facebook or Twitter slash broken uX instagram.com, slash drunken UX podcast. Stay tuned. We mentioned before, there will be some giveaway stuff coming up here very soon. So we want you all to get in on that action and get some free stuff from us. Otherwise, stay tuned. We got much more coming up from dark patterns to hosting solutions and other things in the coming weeks and months after this. In fact, I was looking at our listing and I think we’ve got stuff all lined up pretty much all the way through the end of the year. Yeah, awesome. So with that, I can only think of one other thing. There’s this piece of advice that I think everybody needs to hear from time to time. In fact, I think they need to hear it once every two weeks is and that is an important keep your personas close and your users closer